Subject: Re: Calorad Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 08:30:19 -0800 From: robetw9@idt.net (Rob & Wendy Ward) To: chiro-list@silcom.com CaloRad claims to be able to enable people to loose significant amounts of weight without special diets or exercise. Its ingredients are basically hydrolyzed collagen (chemically degraded tendons & ligaments), aloe vera, glycerin, vitamin C, preservatives and some peach flavoring. Can you say "snake oil"? Rob Ward ************************** Subject: Calorad Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:56:49 -0400 (EDT) From: WSukala@aol.com Calorad's Mystical Ingredients Truth be known, there is nothing whatsoever mystical or magical about Calorad other than it is an expensive protein supplement. Let's do a breakdown of the ingredients here for all to see. 1.Collagen hydrolysate--simply hydrolyzed collagen which is nothing more than degraded protein (collagen is a bodily protein). Why not eat an egg or a slice of chicken, or a can of tuna for $1.39? 2.Aloe Vera--has a laxative effect when ingested orally and can cause gastrointestinal upset in some individuals. I guess frequent trips to the bathroom could theoretically cause weight loss. 3.Glycerin--chemically, it is a sugar alcohol (1,2,3 propanetriol). It is probably used as a mild sweetener, as many users have mentioned Calorad's off-taste. 4.Potassium Sorbate & Methyl Paraben--Nothing more than preservatives to keep the collagen from spoiling. 5.Natural Flavor, Demineralised Water--Just a couple of extras for flavor and volume, but would hardly have any effect in the body. Weight Loss It is probable that the said weight-loss associated with Calorad stems from the fact that its users don't eat anything before bed, three hours to be exact. Then the consumer is supposed to take the Calorad on an empty stomach right before going to sleep. Low and behold, watch the pounds not-so-miraculously melt away. Enter critical thinking here: Let's say Mary Q. Public was formerly eating 2500 calories per day, and hypothetically, 500 of those calories were regularly consumed within three hours before bed. So now she's replacing those 500 calories with 14 calories worth of Calorad, for a deficit of 486 calories per day. Considering about 3500 calories per pound of fat, we estimate that 486 calories (round up to 500 for simplicity purposes) multiplied by 7 days per week equals 3500 calories extra that are not being consumed. This alone would constitute a pound of fat per week. Add in exercise and the caloric deficit would be larger, consequently leading to greater weight loss. No magic here, just elementary arithmetic. Claims of Increased Lean Body Mass Believe it or not the claims still persist that Calorad will actually generate muscle in the body, or, I think the terminology used was that it can cause an increase in lean body mass. Irrespective of what is claimed, muscle does not just spontaneously generate based on the consumption of a protein supplement. To take this one step further, you could inject yourself with anabolic steroids (not that I advocate that) and not gain muscle unless you provide additional demands on the body's musculature via resistance training. So hydrolyzed collagen certainly would not cause lean body mass accretion. In all fairness, giving the benefit of the doubt, consuming protein while lowering calories can help attenuate the loss in muscle tissue associated with its breakdown for use in gluconeogenesis (forming glucose from not carbohydrate sources). But even so, this would not cause an increase in lean body mass. In this case the burden of proof is on the company to provide legitimate evidence that it can, in fact, INCREASE lean body mass, and consequently the metabolic rate. To those selling Calorad, if this proof exists please provide it for all to see. If you are convinced that it can increase lean body mass, explain how you quantify this increase. What tests have you done to prove that Calorad does indeed increase the amount of muscle? These are honest questions that deserve an answer. Is this not a claim made by Calorad and its force of distributors? The Research There is no formal research on Calorad that can be found in peer-reviewed journals. Why? Simply because it does not exist. Anecdotal testimonials considered to be "testing" or proof of efficacy are completely unscientific and hold no merit except for those that sell the product. And, separating cause and effect from coincidence is difficult outside of experimentally controlled conditions, so making definitive statements as to its effectiveness is inappropriate. Bill Sukala possesses a B.S. in Nutrition and is currently in the finishing stages of his M.S. in Exercise Physiology, both from San Diego State University. ************************* Subject: Re: Some FACTS on Calorad! Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 14:46:01 +0000 From: Spartaco It doesn't sound like it is the most harmful thing a person could take, yet that always depends on the individual. I prefer nature's natural combination of ingredients and good exercise. Weight bearing activities is also very beneficial to increase metabolic activity. But if you do decide to use it, it is good to know exactly what you are taking and closely monitor ANY effects you have. But true health must always be accompanied by a whole and natural diet, exercise and positive energy. As mentioned this is the list of ingredients...  Collagen Hydrolystate  Aloe Vera  Vegetal Glycerin  Potassium Sorbate  Methyl Paraben  Natural Peach Flavor  Demineralized Water To extend on that.... Collagen Hydrolystate: It is said to be a protein. The ingredients are these 3 amino-acids (which are the building blocks of protein): L-Hydroxyproline, Arginine, Proline. Arginine: An essential amino acid, strongly alkaline. it plays an important part in urea excretion. it has been used for the treatment of liver disease. Banned as not safe by the FDA, February 19, 1992, for use in over-the-counter diet pills. The FDA data bank, PAFA, has fully up-to-date toxicology information available on this additive. Claimed positive effects from arginine: Boosts Immunity, fights cancer, builds muscle and burns fat, promotes healing of burns and other wounds, protects the liver and detoxifies harmful substances, enhancies male fertility. Claimed negative effects from arginine: Causes bone and skin disorders in large doses, produces nausea and diarrhea, causes mental and metablic disturbances, promotes herpes. Builds muscle and burns fat :- This is the claim that is most often made these days for arginine and ornithine. A still-increasing number of athletes, body builders and dieters are using these amino acids. It is true that arginine stimulates the pituitary gland in ways that increases secretion of growth hormone (GH). This hormone, once in the blood stream, is said to help burn fat and build muscle. GH release has been verified in humans after administration of both oral and injected arginine. There is no real evidence, however, that arginine (or ornithine) supplements can either burn fat or build muscle in humans. This lack of evidence, however, may simply be due to the fact that, as of yet, no one has done sound, controlled studies to test these claims. In one human study, 1,200 milligrams of arginine combined with 1,200 milligrams of lysine, an amino acid similar to ornithine, did cause the release of biologically active quantities of GH, but no follow-up was done to see if this had any effect on fat or muscle. Without the Iysine combination, incidentally, little GH was released. Given what we know about arginine, it is not unreasonable to expect that it might have some of these capabilities - though to what extent and at what possible risk remain unknown. One thing appears reasonably certain:--The small amounts of arginine available in most oral supplements are highly unlikely to have any effect. This is not to suggest that you start megadosing on arginine; though arginine has low toxicity high doses can definitely be risky n some cases. If over-secretion of GH from the pituitary gland occurs after a person has become an adult, a condition called acromegaly results, in which the victims hands, feet, jaws, and facial bones grow disproportionately large. Caution: --Do not take arginine if you have kidney or liver disorders - unless you first receive the permission of your physician. Non-adults should not take arginine, as explained above under Negative Claims. Note that some liver disorders may actually benefit from arginine supplementation - but only your physician can determine this. Potassium Sorbate: A white crystalline powder used as a perservative a mold and yeast inhibitor; and a fungistat. It has a low oral toxicity but may cause irritation of the skin. The FDA data bank, PAFA, is currently searching the toxicology literature concerning this additive. Methyl Parabe: Methyllparaben (methyl-p-hydroxybenzoate) is a preservative, may cause allergic skin reactions and is on the FDA list of additives requiring further study. The FDA data bank, PAFA, has not yet done a search of the toxicology literature concerning this additive. ************************* Subject: Re: Some FACTS about Calorad! From: eee@netcom.com (Mark Thorson) Date: 1997/08/04 Message-Id: Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative In article <19970803203501.QAA28009@ladder02.news.aol.com>, Marleenoet wrote: > >Geezz! If we are going to list sites for information, could we all be >talking about the same thing? Calorad is NOT a drug or medicine. >There are Three Amino Acid in Calorad which are: "L-Hydroxyproline" a >non-essential, but important, amino acid, "Arginine" and "Proline" which >are the vital components of COLLAGEN. It's just a protein supplement >people, protein!! If they are separate amino acids, they are no longer protein, although they could be used to make protein. Out of 20 amino acids, just giving a purified form of a few could be expected to have drug-like effects. E.g. that's why people used to take tryptophan for sleep. When the amino acids are linked up, they form small peptides which also may have unexpected effects, e.g. aspartame which consists of two amino acids and a methanol. So, no, I wouldn't call a mixture of such a small number of amino acids to be a "protein supplement", anymore than I would call aspartame a "protein supplement". ************************** Subject: Re: Some FACTS on Calorad! From: eee@netcom.com (Mark Thorson) Date: 1997/08/04 Message-Id: Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative In article <19970803152301.LAA08651@ladder02.news.aol.com>, Marleenoet wrote: > >The ingredients are: > Potassium Sorbate (derivative from blueberries) > Methy Paraben (derivative from blueberries) What makes you think methyl paraben is derived from blueberries? It's a synthetic mold inhibitor. It's one of the chemicals that Carolina Biological Supply won't sell to the public, only schools and industrial labs. Potassium sorbate is another presevative. I don't believe it is being derived from blueberries, even if there is some naturally in blueberries. It's a very common food additive, but I'm sure there are much cheaper sources than blueberries. ************************** Subject: The scoop on Calorad: Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:18:01 -0400 (EDT) From: WSukala@aol.com Message #1: The following message along with my subsequent posting are from my debate with the Calorad zealots. You will find my comments independent of <> as they address a Calorad distributor's claims. Also, the original message was color-coded so you may lose some of this formatting if you are on a different carrier than aol. Bill Sukala ------------------------------------------------------------------------ <<>> re: knowledge on any of the testing done on the product. There is no formal research on Calorad that can be found in peer- reviewed journals simply because it does not exist. Anecdotal testimonials considered to be "testing" or proof of efficacy is completely unscientific and holds no merit except for those that sell the product. Separating cause and effect from coincidence is difficult outside of experimentally controlled conditions, so making definitive statements as to its effectiveness is inappropriate. <<>> Actually, I'm quite aware of the ingredients of Calorad--see descriptions below in green print. Truth be known, there is nothing whatsoever mystical or magical about Calorad other than it is an expensive protein supplement. Let's do a breakdown of the ingredients here for all to see. 1) Collagen hydrolysate--simply hydrolyzed collagen which is nothing more than degraded protein (collagen is a bodily protein). Why not eat an egg or a slice of chicken, or a can of tuna for $1.39? 2) Aloe Vera--has a laxative effect when ingested orally and can cause gastrointestinal upset in some individuals. I guess frequent trips to the bathroom could theoretically cause weight loss. 3) Glycerin--Not quite certain 4) Potassium Sorbate & Methyl Paraben--Nothing more than preserv- atives to keep the collagen from spoiling. 5) Natural Flavor, Demineralized Water--Just a couple of extras for flavor and volume, but would hardly have any effect in the body. Every Calorad website is pushing this as a collagen-based supplement. It makes absolutely no mention whatsoever that any of the other aforementioned ingredients exert any biological effect in the body. Even so, a simple protein supplement (as it's referred to on Calorad websites) in the tiny quantities found in this product would hardly cause significant weight loss like other high-protein diets (although not recommended). It is probable that the said weight-loss associated with Calorad stems from the fact that its users don't eat anything before bed, three hours to be exact. Then the consumer is supposed to take the Calorad right before going to sleep. Lo and behold watch the pounds not-so-miraculously melt away. Enter critical thinking here: Let's say Mary Q. Public was formerly eating 2500 calories per day, and, hypothetically, 500 of those calories were regularly consumed within three hours before bed. So now she's replacing those 500 calories with 14 calories worth of Calorad, for a deficit of 486 calories per day. Considering 3500 calories per pound of fat, we estimate that 486 calories (round up to 500 for simplicity purposes) multiplied by 7 days per week equals 3500 calories extra that are not being consumed. This alone would constitute a pound of fat per week. Add in exercise and the caloric deficit would be larger, consequently leading to greater weight loss. No magic here, just elementary arithmetic. <<>> The only question I'm left with is how otherwise intelligent people can buy into the painfully transparent marketing tactics being so vigorously promoted by the Calorad company. While it appears scientifically sound to most consumers, it is merely shrouded in a cloak of pseudoscience geared to mislead rather than inform. Given the company's affinity for pushing the business end of the deal, I scarcely think it's an altruistic endeavor on their part, providing a goodwill service to a rather large weight-loss population, and an unsuspecting one at that. You are all free to make your own decisions, but do your part to look beyond the hype. And remember, an educated decision is a smart decision. Message #2: Before I go on, let me say this post is meant for those that may be riding on the proverbial "fence" and have not yet made up their minds about Calorad. Please evaluate this debate based on the logic presented by both sides and decide for yourself. I realize that Chottsie is not going to be influenced by my viewpoint, so I will make no attempt to sway her beliefs. <<> There you go again with the same recycled script. Is personal exper- ience the only way to PROVE a product "works?" As I may have mentioned in a previous correspondence, Calorad has no objective documented proof in the form of randomized, double-blind, cross-over design studies that anything in the product actually does what it's purported to do. If it exists, please be so kind as to provide it, but don't continue to refer to anecdotal evidence as scientific proof, as it is not. You may go on to reiterate that personal experience is proof, but personal experience does not separate cause and effect from coincidence. Are you assuming that BECAUSE you lose weight it MUST be caused the ingestion of Calorad? I'm not denying for a second that one can lose weight at the same time as taking this product. On the contrary, it may be better attributed to a coincidental attenuation of caloric intake, causing an increase in the total caloric deficit, leading to the consequent weight loss. I noticed the claims still persist that Calorad can actually generate muscle in the body, or, I think the terminology used was that it can cause an increase in lean body mass. Irrespective of what you say, muscle does not just spontaneously generate based on the consumption of a protein supplement. To take this one step further, you could inject yourself with anabolic steroids (not that I advocate that) and not gain muscle unless you provide additional demands on the body's musculature via resistance training. So hydrolyzed collagen certainly would not cause lean body mass accretion. In all fairness, giving the benefit of the doubt, consuming protein while lowering calories can help reduce the loss in muscle tissue associated with its breakdown for use in gluconeogenesis (forming glucose from not carbohydrate sources). But even so, this would not cause an increase in lean body mass. In this case the burden of proof is on the company to provide legitimate evidence that it can, in fact, INCREASE lean body mass, and consequently the metabolic rate. If this proof exists please provide it here for all to see. If you are convinced that it can increase lean body mass, explain how you quantify this increase. What tests can you do to prove that Calorad does indeed increase the amount of muscle? These are honest questions that deserve an answer. Is this not a claim made by Calorad and its force of distributors? <> I'll be the first to admit that I do not know everything about nutrition. This much is true. However, I am aware of sound scientific testing principles set forth to determine a product's efficacy. And to date, neither Calorad or it's distributors (Chottsie in this forum) can provide solid evidence that the product does what it says--again, testimonials do not separate cause and effect from coincidence, and are therefore not valid. All I ask is that you demonstrate its effectiveness by means other than "it works because I lost weight." In taking the whole thing to the next level, why not go on a diet of pigs feet, dog food, and beef tripe. I will promise you that you WILL lose weight, not because of anything magical in the mix of these three foods, but because it is simply a low calorie diet. So in the same way Calorad is touting its product as a weight loss miracle (ie, lose weight while you sleep), which may be more coincidence than cause and effect, we could also say that pigs feet, dog food, and beef tripe is a miracle combo guaranteed to lose weight. However, critical thinking tells us that you could also eat fruits, vegetables, and whole grains and lose the same amount of weight but in a much healthier manner. <> Are you aware that people that lose weight also decrease the amount of overall weight on those joints? So it's no miracle that pain was alleviated? Again, go on the pigs feet diet and this too could cause weight loss and consequently relieve the joint pain. No miracle here. As mentioned above, separating of cause and effect from coincidence is difficult when you accept anecdotal testimonials as gospel. Show us the appropriate scientific evidence please. Bill Sukala, B.S. Nutrition Exercise Physiology graduate student ACSM-Certified HFI ********************************** [This post is a response to a Michigan chiro who promotes Calorad. ...one of small the minority of chiros whose practices cause others to question our whole profession] Subject: Calorad Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 19:32:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Apexlady@aol.com Naturally, I found another one I just had to respond to....what with my mission to dispell these myths and all. In his original post, on 7/27/97 MichChiro@aol.com writes: <<>> To which I responded....... >>First...I hear from many people that DO change their exercise and dietary habits, yet still have problems getting the fat off.<< Well, actually, there are many gimmick-concepts attached to many different diet plans which will result in weight loss, and the reason they work is the same.... weight loss occurs in a caloric deficit, period. But the truth is, no matter who you are, there is only one way the body works in regard to burning fat and building muscle tissue.. Unfortunately for the people you mention, they, and you, are obviously unaware of the process. >>Also, you need to try to understand the physiological process involved in Calorad. This supplement works to build muscle.<< You mention that we need to understand the physiological process (suggesting that you know what this process is!!!!!) however you fail to explain it. I beg to differ with you, but there are certain laws of human physiology that no one can escape. When you can produce documented evidence that any substance whatsoever can, in itself, stimulate muscle hypertrophy (muscle growth) with or without muscle damage (as occurs with resistance training), then you'll have a valid argument. Until then, if you feel any responsibility as an individual to spare others the anguish, disappointment and expense -- to their pocketbook and their health -- of "the yo-yo dieting syndrome", as well as any possibility of negative effects from long-term use of this or any other "diet" product, common decency would dictate that you refrain from making such extremely erroneous comments. This kind of hype is exactly the thing that misleads many people to believe that this nonsense is possible. My fear is for the folks you have contact with who don't have access to these boards and the benefit of reading the comments of people like me who will refute these false claims. The law and the constitution of this country provides for you to say anything you wish. If the manufacturer of this product states on the label, or publishes material that supports these claims, there may be a legal issue, and thankfully, the law provides for penalties. But from a moral perspective, as a fellow human being, if you truly care for the success and well-being of others, then I recommend you STOP THAT! Kass Certified Personal Trainer Lifestyle, Health and Fitness Advisor National Academy of Sports Medicine *************************** And, lastly, as Douglas Anderson DC and Diplomate from the Board of Nutrition wrote in his column in the Dec 1, 1997 issue of Dynamic Chiropractor: ..."I laughed after I read the first flyer I received on this product [Calorad] and put it in my nutritional myth file. I wondered how anyone with the education of a chiropractor could take such claims seriously. I don't know if the DC's that are pushing this garbage did not do well in physiology and biochemistry or are just desparate for dollars. One tablespoon of liquid collagen and aloe vera is certainly not going to build muscle without exercise. Even anabolic steroids won't build muscle without workouts. The rest of the claims [for Calorad] are just as unreasonable, including the claim of 20 years research...without a single reference available.."