From: "Dr. Jones" Subject: Non-Compete Notice. Does anyone have text for a good one? Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 09:05:24 -0600 We have an office manager who will be leaving soon. She has a former husband, and a son who will also be in practice in the near future. We want to have her sign a non-compete agreement when she leaves, which prohibits her from taking patient lists, etc. for her own or others use. If someone has a good solid form like this, could you email it to me. Thank You, Dr. Jones ------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:53:37 -0400 From: "Dr. Wm. A. Watson" Subject: Re: Non-Compete Notice. Does anyone have text for a good one? Rather like closing the barn door after the horse has bolted. All she has to do is leave your employ and there is nothing you can do to stop her. You can however prevent her from taking any materials away from your office with her. ----------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:41:58 -0500 (CDT) From: "Gregory P. Gehlhoff, DC" Subject: Non-Compete Notice. Does anyone have text for a good one? > We want to have her sign a non-compete agreement when she leaves, which > prohibits her from taking patient lists, etc. for her own or others use. Doc: I believe that a non-comp agreement should be signed before she signs on not when she is ready to leave. Lots of luck. She can do almost anything she wants. Gregory P. Gehlhoff, DC ------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:41:12 From: "William Cockburn, D.C., D.A.B.F.E.." Subject: Non-Compete Notice. Does anyone have text for a good one? There are a number of very good legal docment software programs available on cd rom for as little as 19.95 to 150.00. Even the 19.95 version has intellectual property and competition restrictive agreements in them as well as a host of boiler plate forms that are customizable for your particular needs. They can also be imported to standard text editors and word processors. Check your local software store. I have even seen them at places like Office Depot, Staples and the Price Club. Bill C William Cockburn, D.C., D.A.B.F.E. ------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 17:19:01 -0500 From: Neil & Deanne Tarvin Subject: Re: Non-Compete Notice. Does anyone have text for a good one? I don't understand this question - As I understand non-compete clauses, this restricts a person from setting up a business (practice) within a certain geographical area, for a specified period of time. This just does NOT sound like a "non-compete" situation. Are you trying to prevent her from making a living as an office manager - 'cause you certainly can't use it to stop any of her relatives from setting up a practice next door to you... If she takes your patient list - it's very simple. You press charges and have her arrested for THEFT - Your patient list is *property* - it has nothing whatsoever to do with "non-competing".... And, if you don't trust her to leave empty-handed, how could you possibly have trusted her running your office????? Neil --------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:20:49 -0700 From: "William Cockburn D.C., B.C.F.E." Subject: Re: Non-Compete Notice. Does anyone have text for a good one? Neil That is true. The concern related to intellectual properties relates to any "business secrets" or "trades secrets" of the office that the employee is leaving, and which, as part of her employment (sic) training, learned at that facility and might subsequently use to the benefit of her new employer and that would damage or cause loss to her former employer. Bill C ************************ ************************ [Ed. Note: below is a different thread on non-competition clauses] Subject: Re: Non competition contract Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 08:06:20 -0500 From: "James D. Edwards, D.C." To: "David F" , > I wish that mile thing was true. Here's the short version of a friends > story. Father and mother die in a plane crash. Son is in 6th tri(approx) > at Palmer. Hires a DC to run his fathers practice until he graduates. Clause > says no practicing within 30 miles after contract is up. Contract ends. > Son comes to practice. Temporary DC moves down the street and takes a > buttfull of the patients with him. Copies of their files. And re-xrayed a > ton of them and took those x-rays. BIG court battle ensues and temporary > DC becomes permenant DC. But the key is the number of miles. In Kansas 10 miles might be judged okay by the courts since we are a rural area. In New York City, the courts might only hold that 2 blocks is a fair non-compete distance. If the distance is right, the non-compete clauses have been upheld. James Edwards, D.C., F.I.C.C. Emporia, Kansas -------------------------- Subject: Re: Non competition contract Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:20:30 -0500 From: "Stephen W. Vaitl, D.C., C.C.S.P., C.C.E.P." To: chiro-list@silcom.com Timothy A. Langley wrote: > > We just had that pointed out with a recently departed Associate. You can > prevent them from seeing or soliciting your patients, but you cannot stop > them from practicing, virtually ANYWHERE. and, if your state is anything > like Georgia, any part of the contract that is voidable makes the entire > contract voidable. BE CAREFUL. I agree you need to be careful, that's why I'd suggest you not cut corners and settle for something that maybe worked in one state, and one scenario, but your state and circumstance may be slightly different. This may be all that's needed to void the non-compete clause of the contract. My advice would be to settle for nothing less than something drawn up by a competent attorney in your area. Why not spend a few extra dollars now to save the cost of court and attorney's fees later (likely somewhere around a $1:$10 savings, conservatively). Case in point. It may very well be that, in Georgia the entire contract may be voidable if one clause, section, or part is found to be void. However, I believe in most states you'll find that there is such a thing as a clause of severability. This basicly says that just because one clause is found to be null, void or otherwise unenforceable, does not necessarily void any other part of the contract. Also an agreement has to meet certain criteria to be deemed a contract. There may also be a hugh difference between a contract and an agreement! No, I'm not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV, just my not so humble opinion! Steve docv@sound.net ------------------------- Subject: Re: Non competition contract Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 12:00:40 EDT From: kendc@Juno.com To: drf@MIS.Net, chiro-list@silcom.com Sounds like what is also needed is some sort of financial penalty for moving within the distance limit, or a penalty for any patients the associate takes with them. Kenneth L Sonderleiter, DC Marysville, WA KenDC@juno.com On Thu, 10 Jul 1997 07:48:10 -0400 David F writes: >At 11:36 PM 7/9/97 -0500, you wrote: >>> You can write any clause you want. >>> Will it be legal? >>> You can not stop someone form going >>> into business. Check you local state laws. >>> Moses ------------------------------- Subject: Re: Non competition contract Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:20:03 -0400 From: David F To: chiro-list@silcom.com At 08:06 AM 7/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >> I wish that mile thing was true. Here's the short version of a friends >> story. Father and mother die in a plane crash. .... >James Edwards, D.C., F.I.C.C. Emporia, Kansas In this case the town was of 9000 people and the next closest town was 15 miles away. Therefore a rural ruling like what you say about Kansas for example should apply here. The thing that made it really bad was that the guy isn't a good chiropractor. And I don't mean "not good" on my standards, I mean not good on the state polices' standards. Lots of breast exams from what I understand. Dave --------------------------- Subject: Re: Non competition contract Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:39:54 -0500 From: "James D. Edwards, D.C." To: "Chiro-list" People are allowed to enter a contract that waives their rights. James Edwards, D.C., F.I.C.C. Emporia, Kansas > From: M Meesit > To: chiro-list@silcom.com > Subject: Re: Non competition contract > Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 4:05 PM > > I'm definitely not a lawyer but isn't that unconstitutional? Something > like restraint of trade or right to practice? > > Maria --------------------------- Subject: Re: Non competition contract Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 07:38:23 -0400 (EDT) From: DrJeff0001@aol.com To: meesitchiropractic@Juno.com, chiro-list@silcom.com In a message dated 97-07-11 05:21:39 EDT, meesitchiropractic@juno.com (M Meesit) writes: << I'm definitely not a lawyer but isn't that unconstitutional? Something like restraint of trade or right to practice? >> When I was in radio every now and then someone would want to challenge their non compete. It is very legal and the fact that you signed it BEFORE beginning the job is a key, at least in this state. If you have been at work for, say, 6 months and they come to you and make you sign it, you have grounds to claim duress. The main thing is that if you give your word, stick with it. I did that several times and am still on a friendly basis with everyone involved. Jeff -------------------------- Subject: Re: competition Clause Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 08:27:01 -0700 From: "Dr. Gary Erkfritz" To: "Brian O'Brien" , chiro-list@silcom.com Dear "Brian O'Brien": In my humble experience, I have had fourteen associates over the past thirty years. With pretty much all of them, I've noticed there are three stages of associateship: 1) They'll kiss your foot for a job; 2) They start to wonder whether you're taking advantage of them; 3) They KNOW you're taking advantage of them but can't afford to leave so the game becomes "Get the (senior) Doctor;" or, they do leave and take half your patient load. Usually, by the time you recognize they are in Stage 2, you should let them know it's time to move on. If they get to Stage 3, sometimes the damage is irrepairable. I wish I could say there was a variation on the theme, but I haven't discovered it yet...nor will I...I've sworn off associates forever. Signed, Too smart, too late...Dr. Gary Brian O'Brien wrote: > Definition of (most) Associates; > > One who comes to your office wearing the face of honesty, integrity, and > gratefulness (an office that you gave up part of your life to establish > with so much free goodwill service and 10 times more than that in insurance > company chisel no-pay); one who costs you money not earns you any, one who > you turn on to new patients including many of your own when you are out of > the office, one who within a year comes to the absolute conclusion that > they built their own practice at your shop and why should they be sharing > any of the money with you never mind the over head increase due to the new > arrival that is swallowing up any chance of gravy money off the associate, > and one who can only come to one conclusion in order to validate that they > gotta bust the contract, and that is that you are an ass&*#%.... for > setting them up in practice for free and now it is time to go down the > street with all of their patients and as many of yours after bad mouthing > your expertise, all usually done while you are away from the office for a > few days or more and your back is turned so that they can steal the > records. > > There are solutions. One is absolute. Don't be so stupid as to ever bring > in an associate, let them find out what it is to crawl before you walk > (have your bleeding fingernails healed yet, Doctor?) > > Another is to have a contract where the associate (notice the first 3 > letters in that word) is encouraged to quit and move in to any new office > even as close as next door to yours to practice. Except the original > contract has a fee included for setting up and educating the new associate > for everything from the real on-the-job training of the chiro practice > and expertise all the way to include the business education of running an > office and staff. > > Because why would an ASSociate ditch until you taught and gave him that, so > just CHARG'EM, for the education. The fee is something like whatever you > think it is worth for X amount of months or years after they move out. > Ongoing payments to begin on their departure. The total sum can be deducted > by what you choose to be the fair amount of money you profited off their > efforts while they were in your shop which will probably be nothing. > > Call the outstanding money they now fairly owe you a non revocable loan > that's to be paid over certain period of time upon their departure and > delinquent payment goes to interest accrural if failue to pay. Any > continued no pay allows you through your contract to scoop their ASSets. > Also talk to a liar, oooops , I mean a lawyer and see if that would hold > water. If aal ASSociate contracts were like this where would they go to > practice to find another one where the primary doctor is a sucker? I know > where, China, where they need about a million chiropractors...hehehe!!! > > After all, the honest and grateful associate should be more than happy to > pay you for teaching him the grits of a practice, especially after he payed > some chiro school 10's of thousands of $$$ for 4,500 hours of mostly > worthless medical courses so you could baby sit the teachers and pay their > taxes... > > Have fun with the HUNS > Jay a cynic for the day. -----------------------------------